Actually you can have xorg. There’s really not a lot of people left who really want it (the original developers least of all). Maybe you could even be the one to put in the insane effort required to make it not suck complete shit.
As far as I’m concerned, it already doesn’t suck.
Maybe it sucks to develop around and maintain, but as a user? It’s working for me just fine.
(And, being a stable release LTS kind of guy, I don’t tend to fuck with things that are currently working just fine.)
There is also Xlibre to modernize it and get rid of old cruft. It is still early stages though, so who knows if it will succeed or become abandoned, etc.
i hope somebody keeps X alive but xlibre i don’t think would last long. even ignoring the weird antivax conspiracy spamming on LKML, the lead dev confused ^ in C as exponential…
I personally have no faith in Xlibre, its developer(s?) seem inexperienced and their contributions to x11 codebase are of low quality
Thankfully there are other projects around keeping x11 alive:
theres xwayland-satellite, which implements more of x11 in wayland so you can basically run an x11 session with wayland support.
And than there is phoenix, which is a new implementation of x11. Supposedly it shall have none of the legacy garbage code that makes x11 so hard to maintain.
I have no idea about xlibre, never used it just saw that it exists. It sounds like it will likely fail. Phoenix looks more promising, but haven’t used that either. And very much I doubt use anything until Debian offers it as a drop in replacement.
In general X is battle tested over decades and while there are oddities and warts, but throwing it all away for a whole new set of the same is not going to go smoothly. Which can be seen by the very slow adoptation of wayland.
But if people like it then they should use it, I just vastly prefer X still. Whenever I try Wayland it feels like a WIP and not nearly ready yet.
It does horrific things with memory and has decades of technical dept and backwards compatibility
It isn’t great for the long term
My config is close to 15 years old and I’ve never had any issue with it. What are those horrific things you speak of? How do they affect me? I have no intention to migrate away unless I’m forced by circumstance.
Clearly you never had multiple screens with different dpi values.
I personally never got that point, because when you multi-screen, wouldn’t you specifically want two of the same model anyway because of color correction, fps and such? I know you can calibrate two different displays, but that will only get you so far and they’ll never look/feel the same.
I am sure there are use-cases for this, but how common is it that somebody needs this feature?
What’s much more common imo is connecting a laptop to two entirely different displays and mirroring the output and I had huge issues with Wayland in the past where it would just show half of the screen on either one, depending on resolution. Not sure if I did something wrong, but had to switch to X11 to make it work.
because when you multi-screen, wouldn’t you specifically want two of the same model anyway because of color correction, fps and such?
Why would I need two 32" ultrawide OLED 165Hz for? I have one for gaming, and a small 14" as a companion.
I made a serious effort to switch to Wayland, which involved ~3000 lines of code to hammer the experiences I like in fvwm3 into labwc and it still feels imperfect (X11 has too many clipboards, but Wayland has too few)
There are some minor more-smooth experiences (games don’t microstutter when I change audio tracks) but the steak isn’t really worth the sizzle.
Yeah, it’s the younglings trying raise money to get Gabe a better yacht afaiu.
BTW’ing I think they call it.
I’ve seen your comments. I get it, you hate video games, young people and Gabe Newell. Do you need to bring it up at any opportunity? How do you even connect this to the wayland vs. Xorg disussion?
BTW’ing I think they call it.
How out of touch can you get?
I don’t hate computer games or young people, I’ve had both for ages.
I’m not a big fan of Valve, or the billionaire running the app store from his mega yachts.
BTW’ing seems relevant. It’s an ecosystem that’s been largely focused on turning a gnu/linux workstation into an x86_64 Steam player for over a decade and now Valve are using BTW as $UPSTREAM. It’s what this kinda thing evolved into as actually compiling stuff was harder than copy and pasting ''yaourt eyebleach-kitchen-sink-bin steam" https://www.shlomifish.org/humour/by-others/funroll-loops/Gentoo-is-Rice.html
Ask a question on X11 in the world of BSD, Debian, RHEL, Ubuntu, Raspberry Pi OS, Gentoo, Alpine, Rocky, MX or in the nerd mines of Phoronix, Linux Questions or Stack Exchange and people will help that have knowledge, ask in BTW lands and there will be witch hunt by people who have no idea what they are talking about.
If X11 goes down it would be like Mad Max: International banking and airports screens would just go black, Moscow, Pyongyang and Beijing too…even more important stuff like adverts could stop working at scale.
I don’t hate computer games or young people, I’ve had both for ages.
I’m not a big fan of Valve, or the billionaire running the app store from his mega yachts.
I’m sorry, but that’s not how you come across, at least to me. I can understand not liking Gabe and I can even understand not liking Valve, but your complaints about their incluence on the Linux ecosystem seem entirely unwarranted.
BTW’ing seems relevant. It’s an ecosystem that’s been largely focused on turning a gnu/linux workstation into an x86_64 Steam player for over a decade and now Valve are using BTW as $UPSTREAM. It’s what this kinda thing evolved into as actually compiling stuff was harder than copy and pasting ''yaourt eyebleach-kitchen-sink-bin steam" https://www.shlomifish.org/humour/by-others/funroll-loops/Gentoo-is-Rice.html
I’m sure speaking in riddles doesn’t help, but I think I understand what you’re saying. Valves decision to use Arch as an upstream distro makes complete sense to me. They would want pick and choose from reasonably up-to-date packages, roll their own kernel and make use of some of the community effort to facilitate gaming on Linux.
Ask a question on X11 in the world of BSD, Debian, RHEL, Ubuntu, Raspberry Pi OS, Gentoo, Alpine, Rocky, MX or in the nerd mines of Phoronix, Linux Questions or Stack Exchange and people will help that have knowledge, ask in BTW lands and there will be witch hunt by people who have no idea what they are talking about.
The wave of popularity for Arch got memed into existence a while ago. Long before wayland was even a viable alternative. Of course the communities suffered some collateral damage in the form of noobs, but that’s not a new thing either. Most mainstream distros have had these kinds of issues for a long time. You’re not going to be able to blame Valve for that. Phoronix is a poor example imho, that site has always been full of idiots and not moderating the forums has opened the gates for all kinds of lunatics. Ever read the forums under a piece of news about Rust? It’s a lot of very opionionated idiots who know extremely little about programming. What about the arch forums? They’ve been reasonably helpful and knowledgeable for the longest time, yet they are part of “BTWland”, no?
If X11 goes down it would be like Mad Max: International banking and airports screens would just go black, Moscow, Pyongyang and Beijing too…even more important stuff like adverts could stop working at scale.
I’m not impressed by the technology choices of businesses and public infrastructure. Most of it uses Windows anyway for some godforsaken reason. I know you’re being dramatic, but even if X was just yanked out of existence, for the purposes of digital signage or other such extremely basic computing tasks it really shouldn’t be such an issue to switch to something else. Most issues would probably crop up on Linux workstations, running a bunch of software through XWayland. The vast majority of Linux computers however, don’t need a display server.
I know you’re being dramatic, but even if X was just yanked out of existence, for the purposes of digital signage or other such extremely basic computing tasks it really shouldn’t be such an issue to switch to something else.
We’re still using COBOL for stuff like Visa and Mastercard for almost every contactless payment, saying ‘just port it’ is not how it works.
BTW’ers more the world of x86_64 only cutting edge gamestation/workstation that could snap at any moment and is heavily populated by people using linux as a daily driver workstation that want to ‘rice’, need high steam fps and are often rather evangelical about the idea of ‘choice’ on a distro that offers almost none of it. Not the ‘How to install Steam on Kali’ peeps, but not far off.
I’m not saying X11 is god, just been happy with it since 2012 or so and think I can at least chill for another good few years.
I should add Alan McCrae and other Arch devs are wonderful peeps that can use pacman/abs as us mere mortals would apt or portage, but many Arch consumers are not this way ime.
We’re still using COBOL for stuff like Visa and Mastercard for almost every contactless payment, saying ‘just port it’ is not how it works.
That’s a weird comparison for multiple reasons. For all the complexity of X, it sure isn’t turing complete. The examples you listed for the importance of X basically boiled down to digital signage, in which case it wouldn’t be the end of the world to “just port it”. It sure as shit ain’t the international banking system.
BTW’ers more the world of x86_64 only cutting edge gamestation/workstation that could snap at any moment and is heavily populated by people using linux as a daily driver workstation that want to ‘rice’, need high steam fps and are often rather evangelical about the idea of ‘choice’ on a distro that offers almost none of it. Not the ‘How to install Steam on Kali’ peeps, but not far off.
How does Arch offer almost no choice? Compared to what? LFS? Gentoo? Let them “rice” and optimize for gaming workloads, why ist that so offensive? You’re essentially complaining about noobs and children and unless they’re doing something really stupid, like Steam on Kali, or being obnoxious in the forums, there’s no real reason to get so upset. Linking every single topic back to the same imaginary societal conflict in the Linux world cannot be healthy. Again, this isn’t a new thing and you’re just trying to link it to other things you don’t like, whether or not there’s a connection.
