Finally
I’m starting to have similar feeling, and it’s not because of the leaders, it’s because of copies doggy business models, no right to repair, suscription everywhere, planned obsolescence meanwhile they call them self “green”
For me the pivotal moment was witnessing how Chinese authorities responded to the Hong Kong protests vs. how US authorities responded to the George Floyd protests.
Baltimore 2015 protests vs Hong Kong 2019 protests for me.
Police were driving in tanks to Baltimore for a peaceful protest
and commenters were all on this “what about public property rights?
What about the rights of store owners?” tinge,
because a couple of protesters decided to burn a trash can
and protested on a work day, so store owners decided to close their shop,
thus losing money (Oh no!).Hong Kong 2019 came around and rioters were tearing down train stations left and right
trashing stores breaking anything and everything until there was nothing left of it,
tearing up roads to block traffic, setting up bombs, attempts to derail a train,
biting police officers, stabbing police officers, driving into police officers with a vehicle,
attempts to steal guns from police officer holsters, beating up civilians,
setting one on fire for saying “Can’t we get along?” and killing another.And then they demanded to be fully free of any charges for that and a apology for being called rioters.
All because Hong Kong wanted to arrest a murderer and extradite him to Taiwan.
Not one that the protesters believed he was innocent,
as he was the only suspect of choking a recently graduated high school girl to death
and then chopped her up into little pieces with an axe, throwing her remains into the river.And the reaction? “What a beautiful sight. Such brave resistance fighters. Such brutal police.”
I specifically remember one article that was “the Hong Kong freedom fighters are using bows and arrows against police, just like in heckin Hunger Games”
What I remember from the Hong Kong protests:
“Hong Kong peaceful protesters are resisting police crackdowns by bravely opposing their ‘cease and desist banners’, armed with nothing but umbrellas, laser pointers and petrol bombs.”What I remember from the George Floyd protests:
“Laser pens and petrol bombs are lethal weapons and if anyone uses them, they’ve become legitimate targets justified to use maximum lethal force against them by our armed forces. Those aren’t your grandma’s lasers. Shoot those bastards!”
one of these countries is the mastermind behind an ongoing genocide and constantly bullies the rest of the world’s nations with threats and actions ranging from sanctions to invasion
and the other is china
media frames it in reverse
“Better to talk loudly to show you are a lying moron than hold your tongue and allow them to remain uncertain” - the book of Trump 230:-12 from the new trump bible.
Actually, they can. Just because you’re not able to notice a pattern in your actions doesn’t mean others can’t.
Everyone else: China please save us from the deranged bully that is the US
China: *continues to play alone with their trains and EVs
[toot toot!]
they that cannot save themselves will not be saved by someone else
I mean I wish they were more militant and think they’ve gone to far in the other direction in trying to avoid the missteps of the USSR, on the other hand I’m some random internet commentor while the CPC is a collective of very intelligent people who have studied history, Marxism, military strategy etc more than I have and have better and more accurate information on current events than me trying to derive the truth from multiple biased public sources, so I still I think their strategy will work out for humanity long-term as the decline of the US moves along
…
CCPCPC…Fixed
Thanks, its what happens when you read too much western media, at least I got it right in my later comment
It’s not up to them, we have to save ourselves. No one saved them, why can’t we save ourselves?
I agree with the sentiment, but they had a lot of support from the soviets from the creation of the party up until the split,
‘save them’ is perhaps the wrong term but the communist insurgencies in e.g. India and the Philippines could hugely benefit from even a fraction of the level of support the CPC received from the soviets during their liberation warthe landscape was different back when the soviets supported them and others:
back then, the only source of anti-communist propaganda was the epstein oligarchy through their limited capture of the media and president roosevelt’s new deal proved how woefully ineffective it was against combating reality. today we have professionally & academically researched, tested and, curated propaganda that’s slipped into highly desirable and completely captured media – in a manner much like you would slip a veterinary pill into a treat to administer to a pet dog – and it’s proved to be so effective that westerners themselves are now the biggest source of propaganda via self reinforcement.
these brainworms have us eschewing and voting against things that are in our best self interests like unions, education, housing, healthcare, infrastructure investments, etc. while it has us encouraging things that are objectively bad like genocides, ethnic cleanings, and climate change.
these brainworms simultaneously label anyone who questions it as tankies online or terrorists in real life and the epstein oligarchy has mastered how to silence them without using outright censorship.
these brainworms make us reject any progressive movement by ensuring it gets either captured by people who mislead like aipac/dnc or captured by people who are promoted because they say the right buzzwords – but have an otherwise status-quo platform – like graham platner or hasan piker.
i’m sure that the chinese can see that this brainwormed groupthink has gripped the entire western world and it makes them aware that there are enough westerners caught up in it to effectively make us collectively willing to die on this propaganda manufactured hill and especially so if they push the issue further via intervention or support.
any materialist at any level can see that these perpetual genocides, ethnic cleansings, or climate change will eventually bite us in the ass and the chinese are just as likely aware. history makes the chinese know that nature will do a significantly better job than any intervention or support that they could render – as well as that any action on their part will be met with a brainwormed response – so they chose to take no action; let nature take its course; and primarily focus on themselves.
it’s up to us to get ourselves of this hole that the epstein oligarchy fooled us into digging for ourselves and – if we don’t – climate change will do it for us.
I’d also wonder to what degree is their success palatable in western nations? Doesn’t China use a command economy to foster a more potently competitive market in whichever programs are being state sponsored? If that’s a big part of how they achieved so much manufacturing elasticity and technological innovation, what would a western version look like? Western politics aren’t fond of command economies.
It’s not just having a “command economy”, it’s in whose interest the economy is being commanded for. The PRC went through an intense anti-colonial / communist revolution to disempower the feudalists and reactionaries, and capture the state to bring it under a worker-peasant control.
If western nations want to repeat the success of the PRC, they need to repeat China’s steps from 1949. They would each need to go through violent revolutions to capture the state and overthrow bourgeois democracy. Otherwise, capitalists will still hold power, and their economies will be commanded to suit capitalist interests.
The PRC has what is called a Socialist Market Economy. In short, public ownership is the principal, ie dominant and rising, aspect of the economy, hence socialism, while there exists marketization and competition for small and competitive industries, hence market. The theoretical basis of this economy is in classical Marxism, which views private property and markets as progressive with respect to underdeveloped, disparate, disconnected production, and planned production as progressive once markets have centralized, as the path forward once large industry is constructed.
The scientific basis of Marxist socialism is in the understanding that markets centralize over time, stitching together the entire national and then international economy. Markets turn disconnected production of towns into connected production with huge logistical chains and mass industry. Central planning is best accomplished with this already developed industry, where competition dies out and markets become less efficient, while central planning becomes not only more efficient, but required for further economic growth.
The PRC is a developing country. Large swathes of land and production is still underdeveloped, while huge state owned enterprises dominate the economy, with the working class at the driver’s seat via the CPC. This process of gradually folding private property into the public sector as it grows is called the “birdcage model,” and is how China keeps capitalists and private property in check. It’s also why they do not have a fully collectivized economy yet. See the diagram by Chinese economist Cheng Enfu’s diagram on stages of socialism:
The reason China has this socialist economy to begin with is because the working classes successfully revolted and overthrew the landlords and capitalists. It wasn’t due to culture, it was due to necessity. Therefore, when we map to the west, we need to understand the difference in class character, as well as levels of development.
The west is a dying imperialist power, where super profits of exploiting the global south are declining. The west is also largely de-industrialized. A pivot to socialism will probably require strong state planning for re-industrialization, and so will have a different construction process with similar frames of analysis.
Thanks for the thorough reply! I think it shifted a bit from answering how China coordinates industrial development into defending why China has its current political-economic system. This is appreciated context, but I’m not sure it helps me understand the answer to my question wholly.
My question is narrower: which mechanisms behind China’s manufacturing and innovation (state-owned banks, industrial policy, procurement, local government competition, subsidies, etc.) are actually necessary, and which of those could realistically exist within a liberal democratic system?
The west is a dying imperialist power, where super profits of exploiting the global south are declining. The west is also largely de-industrialized.
When I say west, I really mean democratic governance with capitalistic economics — would that be modern liberalism? I don’t believe liberalism is dying, but I do think the western stranglehold on global economics (I.e., imperialistic capitalism) is failing in its later stages. I also think something like democratic socialism could come as a natural result, having come from a democratic capitalist society.
My thing is, though, China saved itself using tactics that I’m not really sure are compatible with modern liberal ideology. Probably not even compatible with democratic socialism. What do you think?
The context was necessary because it stands in stark contrast to western capitalism. To shift to your narrowed question:
My question is narrower: which mechanisms behind China’s manufacturing and innovation (state-owned banks, industrial policy, procurement, local government competition, subsidies, etc.) are actually necessary, and which of those could realistically exist within a liberal democratic system?
All of China’s advancements and structures work precisely because they have a socialist economy, democratically run by the working classes. A liberal, capitalist economy could make use of some of these aspects, however they would ultimately fall victim to the very fact that private ownership is the principal aspect of western economies, with capitalists controlling the state. Therefore these would not be used for pro-social ends, but instead for profit. That’s why I centered the importance of socialism in my explanation. It’s a cohesive system, not parts to cut out and Frankenstein together.
I think the bigger picture here is that you frame western society as democratic, and China as not. I see it in the opposite manner, because a small class of individuals handles the running and gains the benefits of the majority in the west, it cannot be truly seen as democratic. In China, however, it’s the broad majority that controls society and directs the social surplus, that proposes policy and runs the country. China’s form of democracy is structured in a manner that suits China’s characteristics as a socialist country, and therefore liberal democracy as you imagine it wouldn’t really work, as its designed to protect capitalists.
The form of democracy and the mode of production in China ensures that there is a connection between the people and the state. Policies like the mass line are in place to ensure this direct connection remains. This is why over 90% of the Chinese population supports the government, and why they have such strong perceptions around democracy:
The Chinese political system is based on whole-process people’s democracy, a form of consultative democracy. The local government is directly elected, and then these governments elect people to higher rungs, meaning any candidate at the top level must have worked their way up from the bottom and directly proved themselves. Combining this consultative, ground-up democracy with top-down economic planning is the key to China’s success.
I highly recommend Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance. Socialist democracy has been imperfect, but has gone through a number of changes and adaptations over the years as we’ve learned more from testing theory to practice. Boer goes over the history behind socialist democracy in this textbook.
Further, capitalist society cannot smoothly transition in a reformist manner to socialism. This circles back to capitalist control of the state, it would be like depending on your boss giving you control of the company willingly, but at mass scale. This is why socialism has only really been established via revolution.
I hope that makes sense!
Maybe America should stop oppressing most of the world if it wants to be liked?
Fuck the terrorist states of USA and Israel.
A trend that will only continue to grow.
Good job JDPONDon
America doesn’t want to be liked; it wants to be feared.
seems like it’s failing on that front as well though
This happened during Trump 1 and then Biden got elected and China was bad again. I’ll be fully convinced when the US elects a Dem and this trend still continues
It will continue.
Competent vs incompetent managers of empire.
Something frying pan something fire
but instead of a fire it’s a hot tub
Out of the 46 bombs dropped per day average frying pan, into the hasn’t been at war(Sino-Vietnamese war ended in 1979) for 46 years fire?
