I printed a model in PETG shortly after a PLA print, which was fine, and it damaged the plate as shown. What’s odd is I’ve printed this same model with this same filament on this printer and it was fine. The temps in the gcode are the same between those prints.
Is this a Z-offset issue? Would PLA and PETG require different Z-offsets on the same printer?
Edit for more details: Creality Ender 3 V3 SE, stock plate.
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Yeah, this happened to me when my Z offset was too low. RIP your bed and raise your offset. Also check how your nozzle looks after that. Looks rough
Are you sure you didn’t scrape your nozzle against the plate the whole way? I’m looking at those long diagonal lines there that appear to be travel moves.
You will have to adjust your Z offset every time you print at a different build plate temperature or appreciably different nozzle temperature, because thermal expansion will cause the plate and nozzle to grow in size slightly the hotter they get and that will take up some or in extreme cases all of the gap.
I have a different set of Z offset presets for every material I print with, because the temperatures are all different.
It’s possible that it was scraping… my printer is in a detached shop and because it was a repeat print, I though it was all good and walked away.
I had some trouble with the printer auto bed-leveling before which would leave the Z-offset too high and I had multiple failed prints due to poor/no adhesion. So I’ve made a habit of doing auto-leveling and then reducing the Z-offset .06mm to .08mm. I last did this with PLA since that’s what I use most. It did not occur to me to do that when changing materials, since I don’t recall it being a problem before… but it’s possible I never did this exact sequence before.
Thanks for confirming.
I think it’s a sound theory then, that your nozzle scraped the surface off of your build plate. Both the plate and nozzle are now probably roached. On the bright size, nozzles are cheap. The plate, less so.
I have learned not to allow my printer to auto-level with every single print. It’s just as likely as not to get it wrong, and unless you have major league mechanical issues the relationship between your plate and nozzle should not be changing from print to print except when you change temperatures. You should be able to generate one level mesh and then Z offset preset per temperature combination and use it repeatedly until you make some other mechanical change to the printer such as replacing the nozzle or replacing the build plate.
Also watch out for having debris trapped underneath the steel build plate and its magnetic base, which will cause nozzle crash issues. Scraps of black filament are the classic way this happens, since they’re functionally invisible in poor light against the black magnetic surface.
This is good advice, thank you. The printer did include another nozzle, although I don’t know what size it is. Or even the process for changing it. The plate is double-sided so I have something to work with until a replacement arrives.
I’ll do an auto-level, write down the Z-offset, and then print the leveling test in each material, resetting Z-offset in between, and noting the relative adjustment.
Note that while people conflate the two and use the terms interchangeably, leveling and setting your Z offset are not necessarily the same thing.
Leveling the bed is a process to ensure that it is square (“trammed,” in many peoples’ parlance) and flat relative to the travel of the print head, preferably at all points on its surface. This may or may not also entail setting your printer’s Z offset as part of the process depending on how its inbuilt process works, or whether or not you do it manually. The point of the bed being level is so that the gap between the nozzle and the build plate is always the same no matter where on the bed you’re printing. Otherwise you’ll have adhesion and gap issues in some places on the bed and not others, etc.
Z offset adjustment is ensuring that the starting position for your printer’s nozzle is the correct distance from the build plate on its first layer. It doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with ensuring that this value is the same everywhere across the build plate.
You should make sure your build plate is level relative to the nozzle first, then mess around with Z offset heights. Theoretically you should only have to level the plate once, unless something works itself loose or some other mechanical issue presents itself. If your bed is not level to begin with you’ll drive yourself nuts adjusting the Z offset because what ought to be the correct value will turn out to be different on different spots on the plate. Your Z offset should be adjusted between prints when you switch from materials that require one temperature versus another, either on the plate or the nozzle itself. (Plate temperatures affect this more than nozzle temperatures, but they both affect it.)
On my machine, a Qidi X-Max 3 running Klipper, I can directly twiddle the Z offset from the printer’s touch screen while printing, or at any time in the console via the Mainsail interface which is accessible via web browser over the network. I have a test print that’s just a 0.2mm thick rectangle I use to assess the correct-ish Z offset, since I can observe it while it prints and diddle with the Z offset setting as it goes until it looks right to me. Since it’s only 0.2mm tall, the generated print will automatically be only one layer thick. I then use that value going forward for whatever that temperature/material is. My printer has a built in routine that allegedly assists you in setting the Z offset but I’ve found that it’s functionally worthless and also much more of a hassle.
Because I’m lazy, I then created a bunch of Klipper macros that do nothing but set the Z offset to one of my figured out values, one each for each material and also for either side of my plate (textured on one side, smooth on the other). To switch offset values I just hit one of those macros from the list in the Mainsail console and it’s done. That way I don’t have to keep a Post-It note or something around with each temperature/material’s Z offset value, nor remember them.
If you’re switching between a flat and textured plate, or the flat and textured sides of your plate, you’ll also have to make a Z offset adjustment. Your nozzle has to be closer to the plate on the textured side to ensure the extruded material makes it all the way down into the valleys in the textured surface. If your printer has a bed probe it will only sense the very top of the textured surface, which probably has a depth of 0.15mm or more all by itself which is nearly the entire thickness of a print layer to begin with.
Thanks for this! Yes, I do know they aren’t necessary related. However, I had no problems with the Z-offset on my machine until I did auto bed leveling. And subsequent leveling have also left the nozzle too high for proper adhesion (at least with PLA). So they are related in terms of my process of adjustment, whereby I have to adjust Z-offset after a bed level.
For the first few months I’ve had the machine, it’s moved around my shop a bit so I have been running bed leveling more frequently than perhaps normal, since I assumed movement is bad for leveling. Now I think I have it somewhere semi-permanent it should be less of an issue going forward.
I can also adjust Z-offset on-the-fly, which I usually do during a specific bed leveling test print.
From the pic it looks almost like the first layer is still on the plate, or is it etched on? I doubt it’s the latter or your nozzle would be completely obliterated (and it would’ve made a god-awful noise the entire time). Sorry for the dumb question but, are you sure it’s not just filament with incredibly strong adhesion? Does it stop a scraper if you hit an edge?
To answer your question, yes usually PETG is printed with a slight positive offset so the filament is deposited instead of squished. Something like 1/4 of the nozzle diameter
Yes it’s definitely “etched” into the textured surface of the plate, although I don’t have a microscope to confirm, it feels that way. There’s no edge to catch with a scraping tool. And you can see in the photo from my previous reply that material is embedded in the bottom of the print!
It’s possible it made god-awful noises, because it’s in a shop and because this was a “repeat print” I just set it and walked away.
Then I would suggest checking if you have filament g-code set in your slicer, I guess it’s possible the z-stop was calibrated with a z-offset applied, and when it was removed by setting PLA the nozzle tried to go slightly below 0. What firmware are you running?
It’s just the default firmware, V1.0.6.
Z-offset is set at 0 in all the gcode I’ve checked so I think it’s the printer.
Does that bed have a PEI coating? PETg can stick to PEI so well that the combination is relatively well known for destroying beds. Plenty of people still print that way without issue, but it depends on having your first layer really well dialed in, or putting some adhesive between the two.
I’ve been trying to figure out what the Ender 3 V3 SE comes with by default, simply so I can order another. But it definitely has a textured coating of some kind.
What printer? Is this a residue that is raised, or a depression on the plate, or just a surface finish reflectivity change?
Sorry, I edited the post to add: Creality Ender 3 V3 SE, with the stock plate.
It does indeed feel like a depression. Or more accurately, it feels like the texture surface has been removed. This seems to be confirmed by dark residue on the bottom of my print, which I can only see because I happened to be using a light filament.
I also destroyed my Ender 3 V3 SE’s stock plate with petg. It just sticks too well to petg, I was only able to reliably print petg when I changed plates.
What did you replace it with?
I replaced it with a cheap textured pei coated metal plate. It doesn’t stick to pla as well, but it printed pretty much everything I threw at it.
I guess this may indeed be a z issue, those diagonal lines could be when the nozzle moved from corner to corner without laying material down.
I don’t think this has anything to do with the material or temperature or anything like that.
I’m not overly familiar with the Ender, but maybe run a bed levelling protocol or other calibration option? The plate is probably toast unfortunately.
Edit: did you switch plates between the PLA and petg? They might be different thicknesses if so.
Thanks for confirming… luckily these plates are double-sided so I have a backup while I order a replacement. As I mentioned in another post, the auto-leveling leaves the nozzle just a bit too high and so I’ve consistently had to lower it. I primarily print in PLA and so usually do my bed-leveling prints in that material. I’ve previously used PET-G with zero issues, so something about the sequence of leveling and adjusting must be different this time around.
Now I know to run the leveling each material change, which is annoying but probably not too surprising.
No I did not change plates. I’ve been using the included plate without issue … until now!
Maybe it’s an opportunity to upgrade to something that’s not an Ender :) The bed leveling/z-offset issues on them are a nightmare. I did the same to mine. I lowkey think that’s why people recommend them as a first printer, because they know you’re inevitably going to destroy the bed and by that time you’ll have decided whether it’s worth continuing in the hobby with a better printer or whether you hate it completely by that point.
I have an ender I inherited and put a ton of mods on.
It absolutely sucks for consistency on z-offset.
The bed is shit, the auto leveling is inconsistent, even not leveling it seems to not home properly every time.
I want a better printer but have been too cheap to buy something reliable. It’s at the point I really want to print something that I have to spend so much time making sure it actually gets the first few layers it’s usually not worth the effort.
What would you recommend instead?
I’d not heard anything negative about Ender, and until now have not had issues. I even printed this giant-ass computer case and fan shrouds with good success: https://www.printables.com/model/1616167-amd-bc-250-case-atx-psu-fan-duct
I think the problem in this case is my inexperience, and unearned confidence due to previous success.
I went straight to Prusa, which mostly protects me from my own ignorance and gives me way more confidence to actually learn and experiment with different materials, it’s worth every penny, haven’t looked back. YMMV. I too destroyed my Ender’s bed with inexperience. More than once. Being cheap, I suppose that’s why it isn’t such a tragedy. The other option is to just replace the print bed and carry on. I went through about 3 before I gave up on Ender. Still on my first Prusa Satin sheet 3 years later. I flip it occasionally just to even out any wear and tear.
@user_6282638282 I’ve had similar problems. It may be the coating has been removed from the bed. It happens when filament sticks too much, PETG is pretty bad for it. I tend to leave my bed to cool so the piece pops off itself. That doesnt always work. Following other advice to reduce adhesion like bed temp, offset etc may work.
I didn’t even time it to remove right after completion, that’s just when I came back to the shop after dinner. But it did feel warm, so maybe it had just finished. Judging by the print, though, it was pretty thoroughly embedded… I’m not sure any amount of cooling would have helped, but now I’ll never know!
